Jesus Came to Put Religion In Its Place?

Posted by Christine Pack

(Putting Religion In Its Place, Apr 6, screen capture)

Andy Stanley, pastor of the third largest church in the U.S. (Northpoint Community Church-Atlanta, GA) said some confusing things regarding the character and nature of God in a recent sermon. Writes Alexander Griswold in his article entitled Andy Stanley's Troubling New Sermon:

The last place you might expect to hear a call to put “religion in its place” is a church. And certainly the last church you might expect to hear it at is an Evangelical megachurch . But that was indeed the message of Atlanta megachurch pastor Andy Stanley’s message on Sunday, April 6, entitled “Putting Religion in its Place.” Stanley, the pastor of Atlanta’s North Point Community Church, addressed the topic as part of a sermon series addressing why God became human. One of those reasons, Stanley preached, was “to put religion in its place.”

And a curious statement by Stanley from his Apr 6 sermon:

“Jesus’ conscience was informed by compassion, rather than consistency........” 

You can read the entire article by Alexander Griswold here.


 Additional Resources 

Andy Stanley: "The foundation of our faith is not the Scripture."

Deconstructing What Andy Stanley Said (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For The Faith radio show)

Is This Andy Stanley's Gay Affirming Shot Across the Bow?

Problems at Andy Stanley's North Point Church?

Is The Megachurch The New Liberalism? (Dr. Al Mohler)

Is The Megachurch the New Liberalism? (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For the Faith radio show)

Homosexuality, Megachurches and Andy Stanley (Apprising)

Pastor Andy Stanley Responds to Questions Over Homosexuality Stance (Christian Post)

Andy Stanley Avoids Gay Issue in Last Sermon of Controversial 8-Part Series (Christian Post)

The Need for Elders Who Guard Their Flocks (Criticial Issues Commentary, Bob DeWaay)

Andy Stanley Continues His Sad Slide Into Compromise

Posted by Christine Pack

Andy Stanley, North Point Community Church, Atlanta, GA 

Matt Kennedy has recently written an excellent article entitled Andy Stanley and Baking Cakes for Gay ‘Weddings’ on the Stand Firm blog, in which he calls into question a recent statement made by popular North Point pastor Andy Stanley to USA Today. (For those not familiar with Andy Stanley, Stanley is headquartered in Atlanta, GA, and his church is the second largest church in the U.S. Thus, statements made by Stanley can be understood to have a potentially widespread effect on Christendom.) Stanley had this to say about the battle over same-sex marriages and whether a Christian baker (or florist or photographer, etc.) should be forced to participate in a same sex wedding ceremony with their services:

“Serving people we don’t see eye to eye with is the essence of Christianity. Jesus died for a world with which he didn’t see eye to eye. If a bakery doesn’t want to sell its products to a gay couple, it’s their business. Literally. But leave Jesus out of it.”

From the article by Matt Kennedy:

"I hope you can spot the problem with Stanly’s ethical proposition here? There is a cosmic difference between, say, baking cookies for your porn star neighbor (serving someone you don’t see eye to eye with) and driving your porn star neighbor to the set. There’s a big difference between helping your heroin addict office secretary get an appointment with a rehab counselor and driving your heroin addict office secretary to a meeting with her dealer. Love does not celebrate or participate in the self destruction of the beloved." (Andy Stanley and Baking Cakes for Gay ‘Weddings’)

photo credit: Willow Creek D/CH via photopin cc

 Additional Resources 

Andy Stanley: "The foundation of our faith is not the Scripture."

What Is the Foundation of Andy Stanley's Faith? (Chris Rosebrough, Fighting For The Faith)

Is This Andy Stanley's Gay Affirming Shot Across the Bow?

Problems at Andy Stanley's North Point Church?

Is The Megachurch The New Liberalism? (Dr. Al Mohler)

Is The Megachurch the New Liberalism? (discussion) (Chris Rosebrough, Fighting For the Faith)

Homosexuality, Megachurches and Andy Stanley (Apprising)

Pastor Andy Stanley Responds to Questions Over Homosexuality Stance (Christian Post)

Andy Stanley Avoids Gay Issue in Last Sermon of Controversial 8-Part Series (Christian Post)

The Need for Elders Who Guard Their Flocks (Criticial Issues Commentary, Bob DeWaay)

Andy Stanley: "The foundation of our faith is not the Scripture."

Posted by Christine Pack

(Thank you to Chris Rosebrough of Fighting For The Faith for capturing a recent video of Andy Stanley being interviewed, during which Stanley said some very concerning things regarding the infallibility of Scripture. The video was only briefly online before being pulled. The video can be viewed here.)

Andy Stanley, North Point Community Church, Atlanta, GA 

"The foundation of our faith is not the Scripture. The foundation of our faith is not the infallibility of the Bible. The foundation of our faith is something that happened in history. And the issue is always, who is Jesus? That's always the issue. The Scripture is simply a collection of ancient documents that tells us that story. So, when we talk about the Scriptures, and especially the reliability of the Scriptures, I think any time that we can tie, the Old Testament especially, back to Jesus, we have done everybody, Christians and non-Christians alike, an incredible service by letting them know, you know what? You can believe the Adam and Eve story is a creation myth, so what? Who is Jesus? And then to your point, when I deal with Adam and Eve, I'm quick to say hey, this is one of those odd stories. This is that story you heard growing up about two naked people running around in a garden. And who can believe that? And there are many creation myths. But here's why I believe this actually happened: not because the Bible says so, but because in the gospels, Jesus talks about Adam and Eve. And it appears to me that he believed they were actually historical figures. And if he believed they were historical, I believe they were historical, because anybody that can predict their own death and resurrection, and pull it off, I just believe anything they say......The foundation of my faith is not an infallible Bible. It's something that happened in history. Jesus came into the world, walked on the earth, represented God, was God, and rose from the dead." (Andy Stanley, pastor of North Point Community Church, Atlanta, GA)

This is simply absurd. Megachurch pastor Andy Stanley is saying that he doesn't trust the infallibility of the Bible, he trusts Jesus, only Jesus. But how is it that we even know who Jesus is except for the Bible?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) 

"ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16-17, my emphasis)

photo credit: Willow Creek D/CH via photopin cc

 Additional Resources 

Deconstructing What Andy Stanley Said (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For The Faith radio show)

Is This Andy Stanley's Gay Affirming Shot Across the Bow?

Problems at Andy Stanley's North Point Church?

Is The Megachurch The New Liberalism? (Dr. Al Mohler)

Is The Megachurch the New Liberalism? (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For the Faith radio show)

Homosexuality, Megachurches and Andy Stanley (Apprising)

Pastor Andy Stanley Responds to Questions Over Homosexuality Stance (Christian Post)

Andy Stanley Avoids Gay Issue in Last Sermon of Controversial 8-Part Series (Christian Post)

The Need for Elders Who Guard Their Flocks (Criticial Issues Commentary, Bob DeWaay)

Andy Stanley Thinks President Obama Should Be Known as "Pastor In Chief?"

Posted by Christine Pack

From the Washington Examiner (1/21/13):

"President Obama’s recent response to the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., convinced the pastor who preached at this morning’s pre-inaugural church service that the president has the cleric’s touch.......Obama should be called 'Pastor in Chief,' said Andy Stanley, pastor of North Point Community Church in Alpharetta, Ga., after he 'thanked POTUS for work after Newtown shooting tragedy when he spoke to mourners.'"

My friends, are these the words of a biblical pastor? Please bear in mind that Andy Stanley, Atlanta megachurch pastor and son of Pastor Charles Stanley, is heaping praise upon the same President who said in yesterday's Inaugural Address:

"Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law, for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well." (Source)

Stanley is, unfortunately, giving the appearance of being bound to numbers and political access rather than fidelity to Scripture. But then again, perhaps gay-affirming President Obama and Andy Stanley have more in common than meets the eye at first glance. After all, Stanley is the same pastor who appeared to give tentatively gay-affirming signals over a recent conflict that he openly addressed in a sermon and which played out at his church. (The conflict in question involved a woman, her ex-husband, her ex-husband's male lover, and the male lover's wife. Yes, really.)

One wonders how this will all play out. In Atlanta where I am, Andy Stanley is considered to be solid, biblical and conservative. Perhaps stories such as these will open the eyes of the faithful remnant.


 Additional Resources 

Problems At Andy Stanley's North Point Church?

Is This Andy Stanley's Gay Affirming Shot Across the Bow?

Is The Megachurch the New Liberalism? (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For the Faith radio show)

Homosexuality, Megachurches and Andy Stanley (Apprising)

Pastor Andy Stanley Responds to Questions Over Homosexuality Stance (Christian Post)

Andy Stanley Avoids Gay Issue in Last Sermon of Controversial 8-Part Series (Christian Post)

The Need for Elders Who Guard Their Flocks (Criticial Issues Commentary, Bob DeWaay)

Is This Andy Stanley's Gay Affirming Shot Across the Bow?

Posted by Christine Pack

Andy Stanley explaining (with graphics prepared ahead of time) why one of the men in an unrepentant homosexual relationship needs to finalize his divorce before he can serve at Northpoint. The blue figures represent the homosexual couple, the red figure represents the abandoned wife.

In the 18th century, a seafaring military action known as a "shot across the bow" began to come into common usage. This was a term used to describe a shot fired by one ship across the bow of an opposing ship to signal future confrontations.  The shot was not meant to actually make contact, it was merely a warning signal that there were future confrontations to come from the firing ship.

It appears that North Point megachurch pastor Andy Stanley has recently fired his own "shot across the bow" of Evangelicalism on the issue of homosexuality with his sermon series Christian. In part 5 of this series, Stanley gave a message ("When Gracie Met Truthie") in which he described a situation at his church where a woman, her ex-husband and her ex-husband's male lover were in a conflict. The strangest part of this story is that the issue with which Stanley took exception was the fact that the ex-husband's male lover was not yet divorced from HIS wife, and yet was serving in leadership at North Point. Presumably, the man's adultery was the issue, but not, apparently, his unrepentantly homosexual lifestyle. From the article:

"(Andy) Stanley told the two men that they could not serve on the host team so long as the one man was still married. He later told of the former wife’s decision not to live in bitterness, and of her initiative to bring the whole new family structure to a Christmas service. This included the woman, her daughter, her former husband, his gay partner, and his daughter. Stanley celebrated this new 'modern family' as an expression of forgiveness." (online source)

The obvious questions have to be asked: Is it even possible to frame up the scenario presented by Stanley (in which 2 - count them, 2 - marriages were blown sky high) in a way that makes sense unless a clear call for repentance is given? And yet, according to the Christian Post's article on the final sermon of this series, Stanley completely sidestepped the issue of homosexuality in this series.

Incidentally, this account of the wife, the ex-husband, the ex-husband's male lover, etc., etc. was presented very winsomely by Andy Stanley with accompanying graphics. This was no off-the-cuff account that just spontaneously occurred to Andy Stanley in the middle of a sermon. The above graphic was obviously prepared well in advance of this sermon. Does anyone else smell an agenda? Is open homosexuality going to be the Next Big Thing in Evangelicalism? And is this Andy Stanley's shot across the bow to signal that he is moving in the direction of openly accepting unrepentant homosexual relationships? We'll all have to stay tuned to find out.......

 Additional Resources 

Andy Stanley Removes Shame From Homosexual Sin (Entreating Favor)

Problems at Andy Stanley's North Point Church? (Sola Sisters)

North Point Student Ministry Volunteer Application (North Point online source)

 Is The Megachurch The New Liberalism? (Dr. Al Mohler)

Andy Stanley Confounds The Church About Homosexuality (Stand Up For The Truth)

The Matthew Vines Video - And A Response (Stand Up For The Truth)

Is The Megachurch the New Liberalism? (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For the Faith radio show)

Homosexuality, Megachurches and Andy Stanley (Apprising)

Pastor Andy Stanley Responds to Questions Over Homosexuality Stance (Christian Post)

Andy Stanley Avoids Gay Issue in Last Sermon of Controversial 8-Part Series (Christian Post)

The Need for Elders Who Guard Their Flocks (Criticial Issues Commentary, Bob DeWaay)

Problems At Andy Stanley's North Point Church?

Posted by Christine Pack

Dr. Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, recently wrote an article concerning the problematic trend of "megachurches" in evangelical Christianity, in which pastors attempt to oversee enormous churches with multiple sites, and members in the thousands, through the savvy use of technology and multi-media. In his article entitled Is The Megachurch The New Liberalism?, Dr. Mohler specifically mentioned megachurch pastor Andy Stanley, pastor of North Point Community Church in Atlanta, GA and creator of the Catalyst conferences. Andy Stanley, according to Dr. Mohler's article, recently gave a message in which he described a situation at North Point where a woman, her ex-husband and her ex-husband's male lover were in a conflict. The strangest part of this story is that the issue with which Stanley took exception was the fact that the ex-husband's male lover was not yet divorced from his wife, and yet was serving in leadership at North Point. Presumably, the man's adultery was the issue, but not, apparently, his unrepentantly homosexual lifestyle. From the article:

"(Andy) Stanley told the two men that they could not serve on the host team so long as the one man was still married. He later told of the former wife’s decision not to live in bitterness, and of her initiative to bring the whole new family structure to a Christmas service. This included the woman, her daughter, her former husband, his gay partner, and his daughter. Stanley celebrated this new 'modern family' as an expression of forgiveness." (online source)

(Incidentally, this story of the wife, the ex-husband, the ex-husband's male lover, etc., etc. was presented by Andy Stanley with graphics. This was no off-the-cuff account that just spontaneously occurred to Andy Stanley. The graphic below was obviously prepared well in advance of this sermon. I smell an agenda. Is open homosexuality going to be the Next Big Thing in Evangelicalism?)

Andy Stanley, pastor of North Point Community Church - Atlanta, GA
(To view this graphic, go to the Christian sermon series, Part 5, 24 minute mark)

For myself, I was thoroughly shocked and appalled when I read about this recent message by Andy Stanley. I know a number of people, solid Christians, who attend North Point, and speak highly of the teaching there. Andy Stanley is generally well-regarded here in Atlanta where he grew up and where his father (Charles Stanley) has also been a pastor for a number of years. So I would say that I am somewhat predisposed to be favorably inclined toward Stanley. And yet, by his teaching, it seems he is drifting down the path of ear-tickling liberalism that so many before him have done.

Not convinced? Then I offer Exhibit B for your consideration:

Andy Stanley's North Point has a document that must be filled out and signed by adult volunteers seeking to minister to students if they wish to be considered for ministry. There is, however, some very curious language in this "covenant" document. The following is taken directly from the covenant:

Regarding Sexual Behavior 

We teach that sex was created by God as an expression of intimacy between a man and woman within the context of marriage. Volunteers who embrace lifestyles or behaviors that conflict with this teaching will eventually find themselves having to pretend to be something they are not or believe something they don't. In an effort to protect you from a potentially awkward situation, we ask the following: 

•  If you are involved in a sexual relationship and are not married, we ask that you not volunteer in family ministry at this time. 

• If you are pursuing a same sex relationship, we ask that you not volunteer in family ministry at this time.   

• In the spirit of being a good role model, if you are single and living with a member of the opposite sex, we ask that you not volunteer at this time. We do not want to put you in the awkward position of having to explain your arrangement if members of your group visit your home.  

• If you are married and are currently involved in a sexual relationship outside of your marriage, we ask that you not volunteer at this time. (online source)

Our commentary: In the section of this covenant regarding sexual behavior, there is no call for repentance for those in willfully sinful sexual situations, no mention of church discipline, just a caution for those in sexual sin not to volunteer for ministry because of the "potentially awkward situation" it might create. But what about protecting those same people from the potentially fiery situation they might face, if they don't repent before a high and holy God? Is this what pastors are called to do......protect people from potentially awkward situations?

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

Taking into account the troubling message recounted by Dr. Al Mohler in the first part of this article, as well as this North Point covenant statement for volunteers to sign, my question is this: has Andy Stanley abdicated his right to serve as an church leader?

"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." (Titus 1:6-9, my emphasis) 

"Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory." (1 Peter 5:1-4)

Our elders are called to guard and teach the flocks entrusted to them, and also to lead them by example. What we need today are sober-minded, Godly men who take seriously their charge before God to not only guard and teach their flocks, but to also exhort them to righteous living before a high and holy God to whom they will one day give an account. We need leaders who, if need be, will discipline their members engaging in unrepentant sexual sin, not coddle them in their sinful passions and tickle their ears with man-centered language aimed at quelling the conscience. Where are such men? And more to the point of this article, does Andy Stanley still qualify for the role of elder/overseer?

Update: Andy Stanley recently released a response to Dr. Al Mohler's article:

"We are requesting that everyone watch the entire series: Christian.* It concludes this Sunday. It’s 8 parts. That’s a lot of content to wade through. But I figure that’s better than a sound bite or an interview." (online source)

My concern: how do you frame up that scenario with the woman, her ex-husband, the male lover (who is still married to HIS wife), etc., in a way that makes sense unless a clear call for repentance is given? It certainly wasn't in the sermon that Dr. Mohler accounted. And if it was given, but in a later message, why wouldn't you give the call for repentance in the same sermon where the scenario was presented?


*This entire 8-part series by Andy Stanley can be listened to in its entirety here.


 Additional Resources 

North Point Student Ministry Volunteer Application (North Point online source)

 Is The Megachurch The New Liberalism? (Dr. Al Mohler)

Andy Stanley Confounds The Church About Homosexuality (Stand Up For The Truth)

Is The Megachurch the New Liberalism? (Chris Rosebrough's Fighting For the Faith radio show)

Homosexuality, Megachurches and Andy Stanley (Apprising)

Pastor Andy Stanley Responds to Questions Over Homosexuality Stance (Christian Post)

Andy Stanley Avoids Gay Issue in Last Sermon of Controversial 8-Part Series (Christian Post)

The Need for Elders Who Guard Their Flocks (Criticial Issues Commentary, Bob DeWaay)