John Piper Comments About "Reverend" Lauren Winner

Posted by Christine Pack (Sola Sisters) & Marcia Montenegro (Christian Answers For the New Age)

 Qualifications of Elders 
"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict." (Titus 1:5-9, my emphasis)

Dr. John Piper
Pastor, Bethlehem Baptist Church

Dr. John Piper, respected author and pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, in alignment with his published views on female pastors, and as befitting his role as undershepherd over his church and fulfilling his 1 Peter 5:1-4 and Titus 1:5-9 responsibilities, recently warned his church body about a new emergent author named Lauren Winner who teaches classes with Emergent Church Movement leaders Tony Jones and Phyllis Tickle. (Although Jones and Tickle are considered mainstream evangelicals in today's church, Jones and Tickle are both way outside of orthodoxy as far as what they believe, teach and confess. Documentation to that effect is linked at the bottom of this post.) Dr. Piper also gave a sternly worded rebuke to Lauren Winner herself, who, in rebellion to God's clear command for women not to have authority over men, is an ordained "Reverend" at St. Luke's Episcopal Church in Durham, NC.

Oh, wait a second. That's not what happened. No, instead, Dr. Piper recommended a book by author (and "Reverend"?) Lauren Winner. Here is the recommendation:

That question must be asked: What is a Christian in today's world to make of such things?

 Additional Resources 

Should Women Become Pastors?

Dr. John Piper Recommends a Book By Emerging Contemplative Author Lauren Winner

Tony Jones Worships A Demon

Tony Jones, the Emerging Church and "Progressive" Christianity

Tony Jones and Why He's Divisive

Who Is Phyllis Tickle?

Phyllis Tickle: Emerging Church Has a Dominating Influence Over Protestantism 

Phyllis Tickle Openly Challenges The Reformation Principle of Sola Scriptura

Phyllis Tickle Tickles Itching Ears (2 Tim 4:3-4)

To Wycliffe, SIL, And Foundations: Is the Gospel an Offense, and Dare We Change It?

Article by Rob Willmann (Shepherds Heart Bible Study)

In the WND article ‘Wycliffe defends changing titles for God‘, Bible publisher Wycliffe defends and deflects it’s decision to change the wording in Bibles that are translated for Muslim speaking countries. Wycliffe, Frontiers, and SIL have been putting out bible translations that minimize or outright omit the familial titles that are plain in Scripture (ie: God the Father, God the Son). This has been documented extensively and can be found in many online sources. Especially difficult for Wycliffe to explain away are the testimonies of missionaries themselves who have these translations in their hands.

Wycliffe responded with a Response to “Son of God” Accusations.

What is the problem you ask?

Simply put, it appears that Wycliffe may be disingenuous with their answer.

The Sonship and Deity of Jesus Christ is being swept aside so that Muslims will not be ‘offended’ at these concepts. In essence, a type of syncretism between the Islamic and Christian worldviews is being promoted.

Syncretism is defined as the combination of different forms of belief or practice. And that’s certainly what’s happening, even if Wycliffe denies it. Missionaries in the field have seen this happening first-hand:

Did you catch that? Missionaries are having problems in the field because when they reach out to a village with the true Christianity, they are finding people who have already heard the syncretized message of Islam and Christianity being compatible.

Friends this makes me weep!  Has Christianity sunk so low that we are not able to stand up and simply DECLARE what Scripture declares, come what  may?

Didn’t Jesus teach us:

(Luke 12:8-9) “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. 

Recently Mark Dever (Together for the Gospel) stated:

“One part of clarity sometimes missed by earnest evangelists, however, is the willingness to offend. Clarity with the claims of Christ certainly will include the translation of the Gospel into words that our hearer understands, but it doesn’t necessarily mean translating it into words that our hearer will like. Too often advocates of relevant evangelism verge over into being advocates of irrelevant non-evangelism. A gospel which in no way offends the sinner has not been understood.”
(Online Source)

While we should never be offensive for the sake of being offensive, the Scriptures themselves teach us that God’s Word IS offensive to those who are perishing:

(1Corinthians 1:21-24) For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Here’s another video on the same issue:

Consider this man’s words from the video:

… and children, they  know that in the house, father is praying in the name of Jesus and in the daytime he is seeing, ‘Oh, father is going to the mosque!’… So these children – what are they to think?

What are they to think indeed! By blending the teachings and customs of Muslims with the teachings and customs of Christianity, these new missionaries are planting strange vine-slips in God’s garden, and we know where that leads:

(Isaiah 17:10-11) For you have forgotten the God of your salvation And have not remembered the rock of your refuge. Therefore you plant delightful plants And set them with vine slips of a strange god. In the day that you plant it you carefully fence it in, And in the morning you bring your seed to blossom; But the harvest will be a heap In a day of sickliness and incurable pain.

An additional critique of these translations is found here. Here’s a short quote:

The contextualized paraphrase of the New Testament which pursues the goal of making it friendly to Muslims is a lamentable and hazardous wager.  The harm to be caused by it will far outweigh any argued benefit.  You certainly won’t wish to have a verse-by-verse, even chapter-by-chapter critical analysis of this new text and the abundance of its explanatory footnotes.  I shall briefly refer to a few of the astounding deviations of the renditions in Matthew, of which the main consideration is to be Muslim-friendly and make it acceptable to them.  In these alarming times political Islam has forced the whole world to keep step with its own agenda.  It is deplorable to see its influence reach even to the inspired Christian text of the New Testament which was circulating six centuries prior to the appearance of this religion now in vogue.  According to what I hear, the representatives of Frontiers have employed Muslims to produce this paraphrased Turkish version.  I won’t hesitate to say that the aim of such people is not to promote the message and uniqueness of Christ, but to serve the line of their own religion.  The group involved in this paraphrased translation is seeking suitable ways to appeal to the feelings of their targeted audience. (Online Source) 

Where does it lead? It leads to a Christ-less Christianity, which is NOT Christianity. It leads to a Gospel that doesn’t transform. I keep thinking of all of the early evangelists and martyrs who followed God onto foreign soil where they were killed for the sake of the Gospel. The men who are contextualizing the Gospel to such an extent that there’s no real difference between a Muslim and a Christian are not furthering the Kingdom. Jesus said:

(Matthew 23:15)”Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Oh would that faithful men would rise up and preach the Gospel, not edit it to make it palatable for men.

 Additional Resources 

Update: Wycliffe Changes their Statement on Bible Translations for Muslims

Jay Smith’s Assessment of Insider Movements, C5 Missions Strategies
Contextualization and the Ethics of Translation

Towards a Faithful Witness (pdf)

Yoga Alliance Shows Its Hindu Teeth

Article by Marcia Montenegro, Christian Answers for the New Age (CANA)

(For fuller information on the aspects of Yoga, such as pranayama, the asanas, kundalini, and other areas, please see the CANA website articles on Yoga. Links are below under “CANA Resources.”)

I am being contacted by more and more Christians who are seeing Yoga in the church, sometimes as “Christian Yoga,” sometimes under a name like “Mind Body Spirit” or a more innocuous name. The bottom line is that whoever is teaching these Yoga classes has likely been trained and tested in accordance with standards set by a larger Yoga organization, like the Yoga Alliance.

Those teachers who pass the test can register with The Yoga Alliance. On its website, the Yoga Alliance states that in 1999, the Alliance “established a national Yoga Teachers' Registry to recognize and promote teachers with training that meets our minimum standards. Teachers who meet these standards are eligible to register as Registered Yoga Teachers (RYT®s). In 2005, in conjunction with enhanced and revised standards for registration, we began recognizing and registering teachers with significant teaching experience in addition to training. These teachers can register as Experienced Registered Yoga Teachers (E-RYT®s).” (Online source)

One of my articles on Yoga on my website discusses an organization that trains Yoga teachers called YogaFit. In my article, I pointed out the Eastern spirituality being taught to the teacher trainees, and how the Eastern terms are disguised for the general public taking classes. YogaFit, it turns out, offers training in accordance with the standards of the Yoga Alliance.

 THE TRAINING 

The Yoga Alliance training “[i]ncludes asanas, pranayamas, kriyas, chanting, mantra, meditation and other traditional yoga techniques.” Right away, we can see that this not “just exercise.” (Online source)

Pranayama is the Hindu term for the breathing techniques, which are often merely called “breathing exercises.”  In Yoga (and Hinduism), prana is believed to be a “divine breath” which cleanses spiritually and causes spiritual alterations.  Doing pranayama is not merely for physical reasons, but principally for spiritual ones. It also induces a meditative state. Since the purpose of Hatha Yoga, the form of Yoga most popular in the West and what is marketed as exercise, is primarily is to prepare one for deeper meditation in more advanced Yoga, this is not surprising.

Kriya in terms of yoga training means “cleansing” and the purpose of these exercises are “to cleanse the internal organs and thereby create harmony between the major pranic flows, Ida and pingala, and attaining physical and mental purification and balance” (Online source).

“Pranic” refers to prana.  Ida and pingala are part of “subtle channels” (i.e., invisible) in the body through which energy flows. One of the Kriya exercises has to do with breathing alternately through the right and left nostrils such that energy moves through these two channels (when in the New Age, I did these exercises). Ida is the left channel and associated with the same properties as Yin in Taoism; pingala is the right channel (same properties as Yang).   This diagram depicts these two channels.

The Kriyas consist of “nasal cleansing, abdominal churning, upper digestive tract cleaning, colon cleansing, cleansing of lungs and bronchial tubes,” and “steady gazing.” (Online source – which also explains how these kriyas are done).

{Kriyas also refer to spontaneous movements or vocalizations associated with the “pranic energy” and the awakening of the kundalini, the alleged energy coiled at the base of the spine, but in this context, refer to the exercises and cleansings noted above).

Mantras are words or phrases which one repeats while meditating. Not only can a mantra act as a tool for self-induced hypnosis, but it also allegedly has a spiritual effect on the person chanting or repeating it. Many mantras are the names of Hindu deities. Some say “I bow to Patanjali” (Patanjali is a semi-mythical figure generally credited with organizing the system of Yoga) or “I salute the Sun.” (Online source, mantras).

Meditation is Eastern meditation, a technique used to bypass thinking. Hinduism (and Buddhism) believe that the mind is a barrier to grasping “true” reality and realizing the true Self (which in Hinduism is the Atman, the divine self).  This type of meditation suspends judgment and critical thinking and opens the mind to any influence that enters. (See article on Eastern meditation below.)

The training not only entails a study of the physical body (which is fine) but also “energy anatomy and physiology (chakras, nadis, etc.).”

Energy in this context has to do with Kundalini and/or Shakti, both invisible energies connected to all forms of Yoga.  Kundalini is the invisible energy coiled at the base of the spine which is to rise through the invisible chakras (wheels of energy) in order to awaken one to enlightenment.  Shakti is the primordial cosmic energy.

The Nadis are invisible channels of Kundalini energy in the body which connect to the nostrils. Breathing through each nostril separately is a cleansing technique (see Kriyas).

Additionally, the website states that there is study of “yoga philosophies.” Thought it’s not specified, this undoubtedly includes Hindu beliefs.

 THE YOGA ALLIANCE ANNUAL CONFERENCE 

The 2011 Yoga Alliance Annual Conference offered a number of sessions for attendees. These includes sessions on meditation, mantras, mudras (mudras are hand positions often depicted by Hindu deities and said to enhance the pranic flow), the “sacred spine,” and the Bhagavad Gita, the most famous Hindu text. (Online source)

The Yoga Alliance is no wishy-washy organization trying to dumb down the Hindu roots of Yoga. As I’ve said many times, anyone who has been trained to teach Yoga has had Hindu teachings, or at the very least, Hindu-tinged New Age teachings.

 WHY THIS ARTICLE? 

If you have a teacher at your church teaching “Christian Yoga” or “Sacred Movements” or whatever the name might be, and she or he has been registered by the Yoga Alliance, this information may be helpful if you decide to meet with your elders or pastors to question the introduction of Yoga into your church.

If the teacher has been trained by another outfit or is certified by another Yoga organization, find the website and check it out.

 RELEVANT QUOTES FROM YOGA SITES 

“In short hatha yogis found that the processes and techniques of hatha yoga produced a genuine purification which positively affected the body, the nervous system, the brain, the mind -- opening up man’s heart and eventually opening up the previously blocked channels between heaven and earth – between spirit and nature – between mind and body – crown chakra and root chakra, and the like. Dormant evolutionary circuitry were unearthed, resurrected, and opened up, activated, and integrated.” (Online source)

“In the Indian tradition, Hatha Yoga is one of the four main traditions of Tantra Yoga. Hatha Yoga is first of all concentrating on the practice of postures (asanas) and breath control (pranayama) to energize the subtle channels (nadis). Thus one might say Hatha Yoga concentrates on the third and fourth steps of the eight-fold path of Ashtanga Yoga. The objective of Hatha Yoga is obviously to remove the obstacles to address the further steps of Pratyahara (sense-withdrawal), Dharana (Concentration), Dhyana (Meditation) and Samadhi (Balance). In many Hatha Yoga schools, these further steps are seen as part of Hatha Yoga.” (Online source)

“Hatha is also translated as ha meaning "sun" and tha meaning "moon." This refers to the balance of masculine aspects—active, hot, sun—and feminine aspects—receptive, cool, moon—within all of us. Hatha yoga is a path toward creating balance and uniting opposites. In our physical bodies we develop a balance of strength and flexibility. We also learn to balance our effort and surrender in each pose. Hatha yoga is a powerful tool for self-transformation. It asks us to bring our attention to our breath, which helps us to still the fluctuations of the mind and be more present in the unfolding of each moment.” (Online source)

“Exercising postures or Asanas in Hatha Yoga has two essential objectives. The first is that to practice any real meditation, one needs at the least one posture in which one can be perfectly comfortable for a longer period of time. The more such postures one can master, the better the basis for developing the inner meditation techniques. The second objective of exercising asanas in Hatha Yoga is to bring health and energy to body and mind by opening the nadis.” (Online source)

“’Nad’ means movement. In the Rig Veda, it means stream. In Yoga, nadis are the channels of Kundalini energy. . . . The subtle channels or Yoga Nadis are the channels of mind and the channels of chitta, the feeling self or being.” (Online source)

“At the beginning of each yoga class, in order to raise the room's energy as well as to relax, focus and uplift our mind, we recite some mantras. These mantras come from the ancient, sacred Sanskrit language of Sanskrit. Through their repetition we invoke the spiritual powers of the following deities: Ganesha, Subramanya, Saraswati, the Guru, and Durga Devi.” (Online source)

“Mantras are sacred chants that harness higher vibrational energies, and can raise one’s level of consciousness.” (Online source)

 CANA Resources  

Christian Yoga: An Oxymoron?

Yoga: From Hippies to Hip

Yoga: Yokes, Snakes, and Gods

Out of Your Mind: Meditation and Visualization

File this one under: "It's hard to gin up attendance among world-loving goats when your dry ice and smokin' sound system can't compete with the world's version of that on the same day"

Posted by Christine Pack

According to the Christian Post, megachurch Pastor Perry Noble has cancelled his Sunday night church services because of the Super Bowl, with the following explanation:

"I've been in church work for over 20 years and the one thing I can say is that attendance on Super Bowl Sunday night in church has always been awful! (and…the people who are there are pretending to be looking at youversion on their phone…but they are really checking the score of the game!)"

 Additional Resources 

You're A Jackass If You Want To Go Deeper In God's Word, Says Perry Noble

Perry Noble Says "You Officially Suck" If You Don't Like the Music

The Perry Noble 2011 Sheep Beating Incident

Perry Noble Has His Worship Team Play AC/DC's Highway To Hell On Easter Sunday?

Perfect Biscuits

Posted by Christine Pack

Please be advised that the title of this post is straightforward and is not designed in any way to draw the reader into a deeper theological discussion about the dangers of leaven, the bread of life, etc., etc. Sometimes a biscuit is just a biscuit. The recipe below is simply instructions on how to make.....drumroll, please......Perfect Biscuits. (Note: Whenever we use the word "perfect" in our household, one or both of my sons will exclaim "You mean, as perfect as anything can be in a fallen world!" and then crack up laughing. Okay. End of theological discussion. I promise.)

I am thrilled to have found this recipe, courtesy of Cook's Countrymagazine, and in fact, I will go further and confess that, prior to having found this recipe, I had never made a decent biscuit in my entire cooking career. All my attempts at biscuits have resulted in (alternately) rubbery, doughy, dry, tasteless discs that might be better to be repurposed as paperweights. And this is no small thing. To be a Southern woman (which I am) and to be unable to cook a decent biscuit is to have your very Southerness called into question. So I have guarded my shameful secret very carefully, with the aid of Mary B's frozen biscuits, and the pretext of checking on the ham whenever the topic of biscuit recipes came up. But at long last, the brainiacs at Cook's Country have broken the code on biscuit making. And for that, I am deeply indebted.

Perfect Biscuits 

2 cups all purpose flour
1 Tbsp baking powder
1 tsp salt
16 ounces of sour cream
7 tablespoons of butter, melted & cooled to room temp (divided 5/2) 

Preheat oven to 425°. Grease a 9 x 12 rimmed baking sheet with cooking spray. Combine flour, baking powder and salt in bowl. Stir in sour cream and 5 tablespoons of the melted butter, and stir just till combined. 

Using a 1/4 cup measuring cup sprayed with cooking spray, scoop out biscuits and place 2 inches apart of baking sheet. Spray measuring cup with cooking spray between each scoop for easy release (the dough is pretty sticky). Brush tops of biscuits with melted butter, and bake till golden brown, 20-25 minutes. Serve warm. 

(Quantity: 12 biscuits)

 Additional Resources 

Mother's Day and Chocolate Cake

James MacDonald Plays the Race Card

Posted by Christine Pack and Cathy Mathews

James MacDoanld with Eric Mason, Charles Jenkins and Bryan Loritts

James MacDonald posted a video today in which he gathered together three African American Christian pastors to discuss the fallout from his public embracing of heretic T.D. Jakes as a Christian brother. Below is a partial transcript of their conversation:

Bryan Loritts: "Some of the strongest reactions were African Americans in the blogosphere....um, I'll just go ahead and say it, who strike me as wanting so bad to be in the white theological world. And to take a little bit of a tangent here, and I'll get back, the loudest voices in the conservative evangelical world, in my estimation right now, are your older, white reformed voices. And so that implicitly sends the message that mature Christianity in the conservative evangelical world is 'older white.' And you've got some African Americans who so idolize that - what some people would call white idolization - that they then feel as if they've got to be the voice for black culture to speak against people like T.D. Jakes. So what happens is, you kind of prop them up. When the truth of the matter is, the term 'black' is very complex.......We're different, we're different. So my concern is, African Americans, a small minority speaking against Jakes, and then leveraging that in the white theological world for some of these older white theologians...." 

James MacDonald: "What would they be leveraging it for?" 

Bryan Loritts: "To fit into their circles...." 

James MacDonald: "Opportunity...?" 

Bryan Loritts: "We want to be in their circles. And so we'll allow ourselves to used as a puppet. That is my perception of some of this backlash."

TRANSLATION: If you are white and will not accept Modalist heretic T.D. Jakes as a brother in Christ, then you are racist. If you are black and will not accept TD Jakes as a brother, it is because you are being used as a puppet by the white reformed community. Our question: Is everybody okay with the race card being so blatantly played?

You can view part of the roundtable discussion below:

 Additional Resources 

T.D. Jakes: Through A Glass Blurrily

Elephant Room 2 Features Trinity Denier T.D. Jakes As A Keynote Speaker

Talk Show Host Chris Rosebrough Threatened With Arrest At The Elephant Room 2

Elephant Room Security on Lookout For Dangerous Persons

Threatened With Arrest At The Elephant Room 2 - Chris Rosebrough's Article

Elephant Room 2: May We Now Regard T.D. Jakes As Trinitarian and Orthodox?

Hypocrisy Reaches New Heights in The Elephant Room

Elephant Room 2 Claims First Acts 29 Casualty

Interview With A Former Oneness Pastor

Carl Trueman and the Elephant Room

A Measured Response to Bryan Crawford Loritts' Request for the Reformed Community to “Repent” of their Criticism of T.D. Jakes

File This One Under "Oh, The Irony...."

The Doctrine of the Trinity

Running Scared: Why Is The Elephant Room Afraid of Scrutiny

Even Better Than The Race Card

James MacDonald Resigns From The Gospel Coalition

A Church Breaks With James MacDonald's Harvest Bible Fellowship

A Review of T.D. Jakes Code Orange Sermon

Code Orange: Revival or Deception?

Why Is Oneness Pentecostalism Heresy?

James MacDonald Digs Deeper Hole For the Elephant Room

T.D. Jakes' Modalism is Just the Tip of the Iceberg

James MacDonald, T.D. Jakes and Postmodern Obfuscation

Oneness-Pentecostals vs. Christians

Is Nicene Christianity That Important? An historical-ecumenical note

T.D. Jakes: Through a Glass Blurrily

By Marcia Montenegro (Christians Answers For The New Age)

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” 2 Peter 2:1-3

The Trinitarian God is revealed in God’s word and has been confessed by Christians throughout the centuries. And during that time, the Trinity has also been attacked and denied by many. Satan is always assailing the nature of God with a multitude of false teachings and heresies. The early anti-Trinitarians, such as Arius and Sabellius, were condemned as heretics.

 MODALISM 

Anti-Trinitarian beliefs are many and often differ drastically from each other. There are even variations within the same views. Modalism is only one of these anti-trinitarian teachings, and is also called “Oneness.” It is the belief that, instead of three Persons in the Godhead, God has three “modes:” Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Modalists also use the word “manifestations.” A common statement of belief about God on the website of Oneness churches is that God “manifests as God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.” What is meant by this is that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are but three aspects of one God; they are not co-existent. Jesus was the human side of God the Father, who is spirit. Modalism is, technically speaking, a unitarian view of God; that is, unitarian as opposed to Trinitarian.

Modalism is not always expressed the same way. For example, a modalist may not necessarily use the term “modes” or the label “modalist.”

 T. D. JAKES, THE “BISHOP” 

T. D. Jakes (born 1957) has been known as a modalist or “Oneness” minister. There is a lot of information supporting Jakes’ modalism, including the statement about God on his church’s website that uses the classic modalistic phrase about God in three manifestations. Jakes, who has no theological training, preached his first sermon at 19; was “licensed as a minister in the Church” at 20; and at age 23, planted his first church in West Virginia, a Oneness church (quote and other information from the Potter House website here).

Jakes' title of “Bishop” comes from the Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies (HGAAA), a network of Oneness Pentecostal churches. This title was given in recognition of his position as a prelate of this organization. According to the HGAAA website, Jakes gave several talks in 2011 sponsored by HGAAA and is listed as a speaker at this year’s upcoming “24th Annual Holy Convocation” in June 2012. His is listed in the HGAAA Directory as Vice-Prelate.

Jakes was invited this past January to be a speaker at a revival called Code Orange, held at a large evangelical church in Charlotte, NC, called Elevation, pastored by Steve Furtick. This event was disturbing for many Christians because Jakes, as a known Oneness follower, denies an essential of the faith and cannot be considered a brother in Christ. Furtick may have thought that Jakes had become a Trinitarian. However, if that had been the case, then it should have been announced. To give Jakes, a non-Trinitarian, a platform in a church violates 2 John 7-11.

 THE ELEPHANT ROOM INTERVIEW 

Not long after Code Orange, on Jan. 25, Jakes was the guest in what is called the “Elephant Room” (this is a meeting/interview event that has been somewhat controversial due to various reasons) to be interviewed by a well known Reformed pastor, James MacDonald, and pastor Mark Driscoll. MacDonald, in fact, had recently resigned from the Gospel Coalition, a group of Reformed pastors, due to disagreement over his invitation of Jakes to the Elephant Room (known this year as ER2).

This is the only transcript available at this point of the Elephant Room dialogue with Jakes.

My brief comments on this available interview (James MacDonald has posted on his blog that he had decided not to release the full transcript) follow.

Unclear/ambivalent statements by Jakes are bracketed by ==, followed by my comments:

==“But how they describe and explain the Godhead in a traditional oneness sense is very, very different from how Trinitarians describe the gospel.”==

COMMENT: This raises the question: Does this mean that Jakes thinks only the verbal description differs?

==“He is one God who expressed Himself in a plurality of ways.”==

COMMENT: This is a modalist statement.

==“There are distinctives between the working of the Holy Spirit - the moving of the Holy Spirit - and the work of Christ.”===

COMMENT: This is also modalist language. To express a distinction in the "workings" or functions of Jesus and the Holy Spirit indicates a difference in the operations of Jesus and the Spirit, not a distinction in the Persons. He has a similar statement later about God and the "workings" of the Son.

==“I don’t think anything that any of us believes fully describes who God is. And if we would ever humble down to admit that we in our finite minds cannot fully describe an infinite God.”==

COMMENT: Actually, God has revealed himself clearly as a Trinitarian God. Jakes in the past has used this ruse of how nobody can really know God, implying that a discussion of the Trinity is either unimportant or impossible. However, we can describe God according to what God has revealed to us about himself.

==“Three Persons. One God – Three Persons, . ..[ . . .] . . . I am not crazy about the word persons this is…most people who follow me know that that is really. My doctrinal statement is no different from yours except the word…”==

Driscoll: “manifestations”

Jakes: ==“Manifest instead of persons. Which you describe as modalist, but I describe it as Pauline.”==

COMMENT: It looks possibly like Jakes is equating "Persons" with "manifestations." If so, we are back to square zero with Jakes and the Trinity. Also, it is not “Pauline” to say God manifests as three persons. Jakes and other Oneness followers, in an effort to bolster their stance, point to scriptures such as 1 Tim. 2:10 and 3:16, Heb. 9:8, and 1 John 3:5 where the word “manifest” means to “appear” or “disclose.” However, these scriptures and the use of the word “manifest” in them have nothing to do with a belief that God is a being who takes on the role of three beings.

==“I think that it is important that we realize that there are distinctives between the Father and the working of the Son. The Father didn’t bleed, the Father didn’t die, only a different person in Jesus Christ…is coming back for us in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is with us, but only indwells us through the person of the Holy Spirit; we are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think any of that is objectionable to any of the three of us. So that is consistent with my belief system.”==

COMMENT: A modalist could say that the Father didn’t bleed because he (he Father) was in the role of Jesus at the time of the cross, so it was Jesus who bled. So this is no affirmation of the Trinity. Also, saying that one is baptized “into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit” could be said by a modalist. It is unclear what Jakes means by this. Is he referring to water baptism, which Oneness Pentecostals believe is necessary for salvation?

==“I’m with you. I have been with you. I teach/preach that all the time. There are many people within and outside quote unquote denominations labeled Oneness that would describe that the same way. There are some that would not. But when we get to know people by their labels, then comes all the baggage of how we define that label.”==

COMMENT: Jakes says that he's been teaching this all along! Yes, he has been teaching modalism all along. Jakes has never been on record affirming or teaching the Trinity; in fact, he has reacted negatively to questioning on the topic. If anything, this is an admission to Oneness beliefs.  He also plainly states that Oneness is not really different from Trinitarian, or at least he wants it to sound that way. He is also back to the “description” remark because for Jakes, it seems to be just a semantics issue. That is what he has said in the past about the difference between Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian views.

==“I still have fellowship, associations, relationship, and positions within and without Trinitarian and Onenness movements.”==

COMMENT: A Trinitarian can have a friendship, but not fellowship, with Oneness followers and modalists. Fellowship is only within the body of Christ. This statement is very revealing and indicates Jakes still doesn't get it, or is trying to blur the line between modalism and Trinitarianism, something many believe he has been doing for years.

 IF….. 

If Jakes has truly become Trinitarian, then he needs to relinquish his title of “Bishop,” make a clean break with the HGAAA, clearly affirm and teach the Trinity to his church, and renounce modalism. Jakes has been misleading his flock with false teaching for years (this includes the Word of Faith and prosperity gospel, which is another deeply problematic issue). I certainly allow for a small possibility of Jakes’ conversion to the true God, but until these outward evidences, we cannot declare Jakes a Trinitarian.

This event, judging by some defending the claim that Jakes is now a Trinitarian, has revealed either a crack in the knowledge about the Trinity amongst some Christian leaders, and/or an apathy to the Trinity. But if Christians do not get the nature of God right, we cannot truly preach the gospel. Like sheep, we tend to stray.

A reaffirmation of the Trinity and more teaching on it in churches would be a good result of this rather depressing affair. There is no salvation in modalism; it is false. Therefore, this is of utmost important because this is a salvation issue.

There is a link to the Athanasian Creed at the end of the links below. Please read it if you have never read it before.

 RESOURCES 

On the Jakes Interview:

Excellent interview of former Oneness pastor Jordan Dayoub who gives his views on Jakes, and whose insights are extremely instructive on this issue

Informative remarks by Daniel Neades on modalism, the Trinity, and the interview with T. D. Jakes, and why Jakes’ remarks are troubling

Minister Voddie Baucham who was invited to the ER2 interview with Jakes, on why he declined and why later he withdrew from speaking at a men’s conference sponsored by James MacDonald

On T. D. Jakes:

Concerns About the Teaching of T.D. Jakes

CARM - T.D. Jakes Articles

On the Trinity:

CARM - The Trinity

CARM - Early Trinitarian Quotes

Watchman.org (Put the word Trinity in search box at this link and links will come up to several articles)

On Oneness:

Watchman - Oneness-Pentecostalism

On Sabellianism and Modalism:

Basic Theology - Sebellianism

Got Questions? - Sebellianism - Modalism - Monarchianism

Sabellianism: Third and Twentieth Century Heresy

Basic Theology - Modalism

CARM - Modalism

Helpful Illustrations of Modalism

"Oneness Doctrine" (Jesus Only) vs. Trinitarianism

The Athanasian Creed, which affirms the Trinity